oops I see screen not big enough on this blog template, sorry about that, so view here instead.
While I put my thoughts together to respond to last few postings, I thought I would add in this cartoon, which is just to enjoy. A good Saturday morning cartoon, just like the old days.
I found it on this liberal blog April 6 posting, which is supported by the Liberal party here in Germany. It is the liberal FDP party here that fights for citizen's freedom, thus less government, less taxes and capitalism, more than any other party. Just goes to show you how labels sometimes mean nothing at all.
Delightful cartoon, Caroline. But you can't post something like that without expecting some comment, and . . . another train of thought(s).
ReplyDeleteI think the cartoon holds up a beautiful ideal. That ideal, which I readily identify with, is today under greater threat from the right than from the left. That's my perception anyway.
There isn't that wonderful we both share the same beautiful ideal, even if we think the threat is from different source.
ReplyDeleteWith the Left wanting more government by definition, and the Right wanting less, i find U.Eric's comments odd. It is very difficult to logically think that giving up freedom in exchange for government security is not more from the left. Yes, the neocons were more in favor of having "terrorists" as enemy combatants, as opposed to civilians. That could be an example of where the right wants less freedom, but i believe that is a weak argument at best. In short, I dont see it as a right/left issue with Obama making no changes, and Bush not a right wing President by almost any logical definition. But even if it was a right/left issue, the entire Left solution base to problems is more government and hence definitionally they are the threat to freedom around the world.
ReplyDeleteIt is nice though, that if you agree with the cartoon, that you are perhaps not a liberal afterall. :) We might all then agree, and i will even toss out another area of agreement, i would prefer the US spent far less on the military than they do as well. That is perceived as an issue the right is in favor of, but the left is not, but clearly that is not accurate when looking at the last 100 years in the US.
We agree, I think, that the goal is freedom and happiness. The debate then is whether government contributes to freedom and happiness, or whether it diminishes that. You, if I understand you correctly, say that government always, by definition, diminishes freedom and happiness.
ReplyDeleteBut there was more freedom in Chili under the Marxist Allende than under his rightist successor Pinochet. There was more freedom in Haiti under Aristide, a leftist, than under his predecessor, Duvalier. In Africa, Kenya and Tanzania started at more or less the same place in 1960. Tanzania went left, Kenya went right. There is more freedom in Tanzania. Comparing the socialist countries of Europe with the US, where does freedom rank? If the incarceration rate is a significant measure of freedom . . . This list could be made much longer.
My point is not that liberalism is more likely to lead to freedom than conservatism. My point is that threats to freedom can and do come from both the right and left.
Good to see we agree on military spending. I do not pretend to understand where the populist concept of American Imperialism and American Exceptionalism come from. However, I do believe Eisenhower was right when he foresaw the rise and the threat of the military-industrial complex. If we want to couch this with left/right labels (I doubt this is helpful) you are saying it was the left that got us into the World Wars, and it's been the right arming the US since then.
So where do you stand on the gun lobby? I kind of think we might agree there as well. But isn't it the right that says, owning a gun is the best guarantee of freedom?
Good that we have some clarity. I do believe that more government, equals less freedom (outside of the extremely rare cases where government brings some order to anarchy). I am not close enough to the situations you mention, but i would be interested in an example of how more government, brought more freedom to people outside of bringing a country out of anarchy.
ReplyDeleteAs far as citing less incarceration in Europe implying more freedom, i find that an odd example (and since it was your only one, i am assuming it was your best one). By this do you mean that people are more often than not, wrongly imprisoned? I don't see the correlation with freedom and incarceration.
So as far as freedom to accomplish what you want, i see the US as unique in the world. Unfortunately, that perhaps is quickly ending, we shall see. As Ronald Reagan said, "freedom is only one generation from extinction" and seems all too many give up freedom for entitlements.
Are you aware of any data that quantifies the amount of government and compares it with a quantified amount of freedom? Or is this more like a religion that is not interested in data?
ReplyDeleteI find this web site measures many of the things I consider important. http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/
I agree that freedom is precarious. I rather think that Muslims and others of a dark skin color would say they have lost freedom in the US since 9/11. Can this loss of freedom be couched in left/right language?
I am always interested in data, and that is why I was hoping you would have an example from the ones you cited, on how more government provided more freedom. Should i conclude you don't have a good example?
ReplyDeleteI think what I am trying to say is that the idea of freedom is, to a significant extent, elusive. I don't see how freedom can be quantified, and if it can't be quantified, it can't be measured, can it. We can think of proxies for freedom, but the proxy one choses, is significantly personal - hence subjective, rather than objective. I am suggesting your experience of freedom in the US is essentially subjective -- at least when you compare the US with other OECD countries.
ReplyDeleteI will elaborate on examples when I have a little more time.
In the mean time check out equalitytrust -- all proxies for sure. For me they are relevant, and that is subjective.