You may recall that what started this blog is a posting Carline had done on her blog. You were describing the events in Germany leading up to celebration of the collapse of the WALL, the collapse of the Soviet Empire. I made a comment to the effect that I was looking for a better understanding of why the totalitarianism of Stalin had not carried forward to Gorbachev.
That question still intrigues me, more than whether the conservative way of organizing our economies is superior to the liberal way.
I recently listened to a lecture given at a TED conference, What Zimbardo suggests, although he does not say it, is that Hitler, Stalin and George Bush's Neocons in Washington have a disturbing amount in common.
He says there are seven social processes that grease the slippery slope of evil.
> Mindlessly taking the first small step.
> Dehumanization of others.
> De-individuation of self.
> Diffusion of personal responsibility.
> Blind obedience of authority.
> Uncritical conformity to group norms.
> Passive tolerance to evil through inaction or indifference.
Zimbardo's lecture is a good listen [or read - it is also in print.]
I believe your title confirms the view that you are a liberal/the left, and in my opinion is an opposite view of humanity than that which the Bible portrays.
ReplyDeleteI believe the Bible teaches than man is not basically good, and that it is man's nature that is the root of evil. Therefore, conservatives want to improve the world through character development, which takes place in the home and in churches (not government). Liberals believe in the inherent goodness of man, and therefore if there is some evil then it must be the result of an external influence. Therefore, they seek to create nirvana on earth through social policy, and start with a faulty premise of human nature. I think this lack of understanding of human nature, is why liberal social policy consistently fails whenever it is tried.
Apologies, but i will continue to be very slow to respond near term, as i have a presentation to do that is taking too much of my time.
My apologies. The link did not come through on the post. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/philip_zimbardo_on_the_psychology_of_evil.html
ReplyDelete1) I suspect that it will take a better theologian than I to say what the Bible basically teaches about the nature of man. The bible also teaches a fair bit about institutions. But we could discuss it for a while if you wish.
2) I don't know of a liberal [granted, the selection is small] who does not believe that the character development in the home and in the church is paramount.
3) In my [probably distorted] view, conservatives see themselves as good, leftists as evil.:) I, at this point, still fail to see how conservatives deal with the evil in man. Does the "invisible hand of the market" deal with that?
4) Before we can even begin to discuss whether liberal or conservative policy has failed, we need to agree on what measurement criteria to use. Affluence hardly seems adequate. What is the conservative view of nirvana?
5) I repeat: I find the similarities between Hitler, Stalin and George Bush's neocons disconcerting to say the least.
Further to Karl's comment above, if that analysis of good and evil answers the questions you are asking, I suppose that's fine. For me that analysis is an answer looking for a question.
ReplyDeleteThe question that engages me is:
> Why did the Holocaust happen in Nazi Germany? Why not in Trudeau's Canada?
> Why did the Gulag happen in Stalinist Russia. Why not in Eisenhower's USA?
> Why did Abu Graib happen in Iraq?
> Why did Joe Darby blow the whistle on what was happening in Abu Graib?
> Why did the USA treat Joe Darby the way it did? America did not make Joe Darby a hero. It made him a traitor.
> What about me?
Then I am a liberal conservative based on Karl’s definition for I believe more so in character development than creating a good society and I believe the people are created good, but do bad things.
ReplyDeleteTaking why good people do bad things further:
Have you read The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell? Karl and I have. Gladwell himself a mix of conservatism and liberalism thinking, though probably more so liberal now, but when in Canada was considered conservative, I think.
He says good people do bad things because of contextual changes. Pg 160 “…sometimes one overestimates fundamental character traits and underestimates the importance of situation and context”.
Zimbardo’s Stanford prison project is one of his examples that he uses. There are others why students cheat, the Good Samaritan test, and others.
He writes:
pg 150 “in the 1960’s liberals… talk about the importance of environment… of fundamental social factors: crime, they said was the result of social injustice, of structural economic inequities, of unemployment, of racism, of decade of institutional and social neglect, so if you wanted to stop crime you had to undertake some fairly heroic steps. But the Power of Context says that what really matters is little things.”…
Pg 151 “… you can prevent crimes just by scrubbing off graffiti and arresting fare-beaters: crime epidemics have Tipping points…”as major Giuliani did in New York.
I am not saying I agree with all these theories I am just pointing them out. Though “ clean Caroline” likes the easy solution of clean subways.
I did watch the video, it is shocking how people behave in situations as Zimbardo’s comparisons show his prison project where he himself didn’t know it was out of control and the electric experiment and the real Abu Ghraib prison abuses. It is all too often shocking to what extremes people will go to.
We obviously know where Zimbardo's political views lie and he is entitled to his opinion.
We can be thankful that the judicial system at least if sufficiently I do not know but at least tried and charged the people behind the crimes in the Abu Ghraib prison. Thank goodness for people like Joe Darby.
Thus I am not sure how we can compare this abuse of power to Hitler and Stalin, where the people did not have the power to punish the military for their crimes or the freedom to criticize the administration.
By the way what you might find interesting is a German made movie, based on the Stanford prison project called Das or The Experiment ( Diana told me about it yrs ago, so out in DVD there).
Another movie on this similar subject is a German made movie Die Welle, which was based on an American book called The Wave, not sure if put into a film in USA, which was based on a social class experiment done in the US, to explain Nazi Germany to students.
Perhaps you have seen them? If I mentioned before than I am sorry.
You have raised so many issues here that I want to respond to but sorry it'll take some time.
ReplyDeleteDo you really question why holocaust happened in Nazi Germany and not Trudeau's Canada?
Or the Gulag's in Stalinist Russia and not Eisenhower's USA?
It is shocking. So how confident can I be that if I were put into a situation of that nature, that I would do the right thing?
ReplyDeleteI don't know who said that you could not be a thinking person in the early part of the 20th century, and NOT BE a communist, and you could not be a thinking person in the later part of the 20th century and BE a communist. I think there is a lot of truth in that. And I think what caused this shift in thinking was not a disillusionment with leftist political organization (although there may have been reason for that disillusionment too). No it was the realization that "in capitalism one man oppresses another, and in communism its just the other way round".
I just realized that if I continue on, this could become a very long comment, and I really don't have time for that now. I have not read "The Tipping Point", although I have heard of it. I will look for it. I notice that "Das Experiment" is available at various places with English subtitles. I will and get it.
In response to your question as to whether I really question why holocaust happened in Nazi Germany and not Trudeau's Canada?
ReplyDeleteOr the Gulag's in Stalinist Russia and not Eisenhower's USA? the answer is yes, in this sense:
I do not believe that there is anything intrinsic to Germans or Russians that resulted in the atrocities of the Holocaust or the Gulag. So what was it? I think the character of Hitler and Stalin had something to do with it. Trudeau had a cult following as well in his time, but he chose not to use that to his own advantage. But again, I don't think that was the primary difference.
Let me cut to the chase. I am very concerned about what is happening in Washington since 7/11. I will make my points briefly.
> Bush said you are either with us or for us.
> Bush said terrorists hate us because of what we believe - freedom and all those wonderful things. (in fact terrorists hate the US because of what it does)
> the US justified entering the war in Iraq with lies
> the US bill of rights prohibits torture, but the administration has gotten around that, and the courts can't seem to do anything about it.
> prior to 7/11 most people opposed torture, including John McCain. Today most Americans find it acceptable, including President Obama.
The above list could be greatly extended, and each of those points could be greatly expanded.
I see this as a dangerous trend towards totalitarianism. And (correct me it I'm wrong) fundamentally, the push in that direction is coming from the Right.
I want to go in another direction with another post, but I'll wait for Caroline's comments first.
If the question of where evil comes from, and/or how we deal with it, intrigues you, check this thought provoking essay at my favorite web site http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2010/03/jesus-and-hitler-atone-for-our-sins/
ReplyDeleteoh I replied on capitalism oppression in the wrong post.
ReplyDeleteok on to Jesus and Hitler.
Though I agree with the part of scapegoat that society uses Hitler as a measurement of evil, it is never as bad as what Hitler.
I am sorry and I really don’t want to go into this topic and I know that was not your intention either but I must just say that Hitler wasn’t then and isn’t now a scapegoat for the Germans.
To suggest that “the German culture certainly played a part in the giving rise to the evils of the WWII”, is also one of those things people say without fully understanding history.
I don’t know what to do with Hitler and Trudeau, without clarifying history at that time, the Treaty of Versailles, the depression, the anti Semitism in Europe, Hitler’s rise to dictatorship, but I am sure that is not what you are looking for. I assume you are comparing them in context to Karl’s definition of good with respect to liberal and conservative, and I still don’t know what to say.